I’m genuinely just confused what the hype is with HHKB. It sounds just like a membrane but for 250 dollars. What the hell is the hype about?
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Thank you good sir for posting this. I was waiting for someone to post this as I too was afraid to ask.
It feels good and the layout is ideal, once you get used to it. Although no accounting for taste. It’s worth trying for a week or two, you might like it :)
What do you mean by “layout is ideal […] not accounting for taste”? I thought taste / aesthetics was the reason behind the layout? Don’t get me wrong, i really like the aesthetics, but i can’t see how it’s objectively a better layout.
It isn’t objective. But tons of people like it. The idea is to keep your fingers and hands on the home row at all times, so the modifiers are moved around and some actions like the arrow keys are moved to the function row.
Sounds like vim motions
Heavily influenced by vim
The layout isn’t “ideal” for many people who care about ergonomics given that it’s row-staggered and non-split. A split Topre keyboard would be a dream, though.
Hate the layout, but love topre
Get a real force
Full-sized Realforce R2 ended up being my final keyboard. I don’t even look at new keyboards anymore.
Same here, I have Cherry and Alps keyboards too. Topre keys are the most comfortable, feels good and is not too loud. Topre is the only one I don’t feel fatigued after hours of typing. And full keyboard is the best IMO, I don’t need to memorize any shortcut and it actually looks great.
Same here, I picked one up on Amazon for $180 and haven’t looked back
R1 87u was definitely the best realforce board but the r2 was great too. The tkl plus the numpad lock is awesome, and the steel plate is incredible with topre. Best typing experience ever
or a leopold!
That’s what I did. Lucky to have someone to sell it to me.
Leopold is much sturdier and also has the nice typing feel. I don’t care it’s heavier, I prefer it that way.
I could not get used to HHKB’s lack of ability to remap capslock (ctrl on that board) to escape. Years of muscle memory I did not want to change. There is no good position for CTRL if you put ESC there. Also arrow keys with modifier I found bit hard to use.
Leopold has regular capslock which I remapped. Also has arrow keys. I do miss the old position of backspace, that is now bit further. And sometimes wish CTRL was bit higher. Overall very happy that I switched and an no longer looking for another keyboard.
I love my r2 but I wanna switch keycaps on it. Cant find any decent blank ones
It’s a really great typing experience in a really intuitive (for me) form. Also its way beyond a basic membrane: independent soft rubber domes sitting on light metal springs over contact pads on a PCB. All parts independent of each other increasing ability to repair and replace vs a membrane.
Enjoy the layout enough that chose it for my New Model F board.
I had some real severe buyers remorse getting one of those new model Fs. Hear me out. The general typing experience was astonishingly good. Honestly as a typing experience goes I couldn’t compare it to any of the hundred or so MX switches. It was just so very pleasant to type on.
But the space bar killed it for me. There was no amount of tuning I could do to make it feel less cheap and rattly than it already was. If they ever add the ability to use aftermarket stabs I will GLADLY fork over another $350-$400 to get another.
I understand what you mean and IIRC the floss mod I did on mine solved all the problems. Floss modded every spring on my board and it just got so much better, including the space bar.
You should try one if you get a chance because if your takeaway from hearing about them online is that “it sounds just like a membrane but for 250 dollars” then I’m not sure there’s any combination of words that will make you understand.
Full disclosure: I’m a Realforce user. I tried the HHKB, and while my opinion is far from “it’s a membrane keyboard” I still don’t have great things to say about it. I don’t think there’s any reasonable way to justify the price tag, whether it’s in terms of raw materials or RnD or even the “experience”.
You could say that the HHKB uses a custom mold, but so do the alternatives. In fact the alternatives are sturdier and some of them even have metal plates.
It’s got a Unix layout, but I don’t see how that adds up to 250. The layout has been around for donkeys years. How much brain power does it take to go “oh, maybe add layers and function keys”? Any Embedded Systems intern can come up with that and implement it in one summer (heck maybe a week).
I was a little ranty, but that’s my honest opinion on the HHKB keyboards. If you think you’ll enjoy typing on it, then by all means. I think you can definitely enjoy it, I just can’t think you can justify the price tag.
Well said.
That’s like saying why do people like sex? Just sounds like masturbation but with more work.
there were so many other comparisons you could have made
The analogy sticks so well though. It’s in my brain for eternity now.
My man, why was THAT the analogy you chose lol
Because it really do be like that sometimes
Love the layout, will never go back. Lowered backspace, control in place of caps lock, backtick on the right, all winning moves for me. Function keys are accessible and makes using things like arrows, pg up/down, and home/back loads more convenient.
Haven’t used a real HHKB though. Would like to try, but lack of aftermarket caps keeps me away. I don’t use the same function layout(s) that are printed on the caps and I’m not a good enough typist to go with blanks.
Honestly probably just wait for a ec conversion of a custom in hhkb layout. Other than topre and layout, hhkbs are pretty lacking, like having a rather light and not great build quality, horrible feet, lack of software reprogramming like qmk, and it even uses mini USB b on older models
You’re gonna have a fun time once you learn about all the aftermarket cases and controllers available for it.
Yeah I already know full about it, still doesn’t change they’re not stock on the hhkb
Yeah, the layout is the best thing for me. I play some wow and not having to stretch your pinky is the best. Same thing with crouch spam in cod.
I have a hhkb pro 2 and it was fine for gaming, but the travel and actuation felt a bit “slow” for high paced fps. I’m currently using a Rama Kara. It’s not the best, but I’m happy.
Ordered an M60-B, press F
Why? I really want that, but the price was too steep for me 😅
I like Topre switches, but don’t care for the actual HHKB layout, so I made my own.
The first thing to go was the antiquated staggered layout.
There’s absolutely no reason for that to still exist.
A keyboard is not a manual typewriter.
The keys aren’t going to get stuck, if you type too fast.My layout retains all the good features from the original, like the split backspace, but it adds a numpad, splits the spacebar, and fixes the issues with the arrow keys, all in the same footprint.
🤯
After years of using a Planck and Preonic I returned to row staggered. If anything columnar stagger and/or split should be what is utilized, full ortho doesn’t seem any more ergonomic due to the way you need to turn your wrists
I have no idea what you’re talking about with your “turn your wrists” comment.
My wrists are perfectly straight, with respect to my forearms, both horizontally and vertically, when using any of my orthos, including my Preonic.
I make all the alignment adjustments with my fingers, just like I do when playing guitar or bass.Columnar stagger is OK, but is exactly the same as ortho, with respect to wrist position.
You just have to reach farther for some keys, which doesn’t affect wrist alignment, when done properly.Splits, assuming you are still using some form of straight line layout with them, do not change your wrist positions either.
They change the alignment of your elbows and shoulders.
Standard stagger splits have exactly the same issues as a single board standard stagger, with respect to your left wrist having to turn outward.The scientific term would be “ulnar deviation”.
True ergonomics would be more along the lines of Dactyl Manuform or Corne with tenting.
The pronation and extension of the wrists in addition to ulnar deviation is very similar on both row staggered and ortholinear boards, the main difference being that there is less space from key-to-key with ortholinear layouts, but that doesn’t mean that it is more ergonomic.
I can’t imagine typing in a layout like the one you are currently using and having your wrists ‘perfectly straight’ unless you had incredibly narrow shoulders with your elbows tucked into your rib cage. I have fairly petite dimensions, and even for me they would be nowhere near ‘perfectly straight’.
Standard stagger turns your left wrist outward, as you ascend the rows, which is what creates ulnar deviation.
Ortho, with proper form, does not create this condition because there is no outward stagger to the keys forcing you to chase them.
Your fingers should travel straight up and down the columns, which does not require any deviations in the wrist to accomplish.There is no “less space from key to key” with ortho.
The keys are spaced exactly the same as they are on a standard layout, they are just aligned differently.Your own form is causing you to misinterpret my claim to straight wrists.
As I mentioned in my previous post, my wrists are straight with respect to my forearms.
My upper arms are at a comfortable distance from my chest, and angling outward from my body.
My forearms make the return trip to the keyboard at maybe a 20 degree angle to the board.
My fingers stagger, to align themselves to the rows.You, by contrast, are trying to align your wrists to the keys themselves, which is terrible form for typing.
That is why you have to uncomfortably compress yourself, and/or bend your wrists outward, to align to the keyboard.don’t you essentially create outward stagger by virtue of the fact that, by your own admission, the key columns are 20 degrees off alignment from your forearms?
ortho seems like such a half-measure compared to a split ortho or columnar staggered board
Columnar stagger is exactly the same as ortho, and traditional stagger splits are nearly as bad as traditional stagger on a single board setup.
The be-all, end-all of this discussion is whether you keep your wrists straight, as referenced from your forearms.
How you choose to do that is up to you.Imagine having a piece of diamond-coated piano wire running through a wooden hoop.
As long as you pull the wire straight, nothing happens to the wood.
If you pull one end, or the other, out of alignment, the wire starts sawing at the wood.That is a very good simulacrum of your carpal tunnels.
As long as there is minimal contact between your tendons, and the surrounding bones, you are good.
The tendons contact the bone, get irritated, then inflamed, and begin pushing against the nerves, which is what causes the intense pain.Your wrist angle, compared to the board itself, is not the important part of this issue.
It’s your wrist angle, compared to your forearm that causes issues.Straighten that out in whatever manner works best for you.
Standard stagger turns your left wrist outward, as you ascend the rows, which is what creates ulnar deviation.
No, that is present at any point on Ortholinear. Here’s some random images from Youtube videos: Even with the split ortho keyboard, ulnar deviation is present. For that to be avoided with an Ortholinear board, you would have to have inhumanly narrow shoulders.
Ortho, with proper form, does not create this condition because there is no outward stagger to the keys forcing you to chase them.
Unless your proper form is literally sticking your arms out in front of you like a stereotypical zombie, I don’t know how one could feasibly achieve this.
There is no “less space from key to key” with ortho.
There absolutely is and it is easily observable.
You, by contrast, are trying to align your wrists to the keys themselves, which is terrible form for typing. That is why you have to uncomfortably compress yourself, and/or bend your wrists outward, to align to the keyboard.
I’ve told you nothing about how I type, so any assumptions you are making here are based on something else.
You’ve told me you have to compress your arms against your chest to use an ortho, and that you have blatant ulnar deviation while doing so.
The only way those two add up, is if you are trying to keep your arms perpendicular to the keyboard rows.Here’s picture of my right arm, in typing position, on my Preonic.
Notice that my wrist is straight, even though my arm is coming in at an angle.
You can’t really tell from the overhead picture, but it is also straight vertically because I float my hands over the keyboard, like a pianist.As I told the other user above, the only thing that matters here is that you keep your wrists straight, with respect to your forearms.
Do that however you want, with whatever you want.
Sounds like ‘Moonlander’ to me…
I could easily see myself really getting into the layout. I’ve already put control where capslock was on all my keyboards and love that. I’d like to move backspace down to the Q row, but sometimes I type on a laptop keyboard and that would just fuck up my muscle memory too much.
I don’t have an HHKB but I use the HHKB layout and I love it. It significantly reduces hand movement and is actually very easy to get used to
I love how the 2 comments directly before show 2 opposing opinions, BOTH VALID. A perfect encapsulation of the hobby hahahah
It’s a fantastic board for typing and programming.
Has replaceable batteries, USB-C, Lightweight, quiet, and has a completely unique key feel that very few keyboards can match.
Do a BKE dome swap and get some silencing rings for the upstroke. And you have a tactile keyboard that can match Clicky boards in key feel while being linear silent switch quiet.
Costs you an arm and a leg though. I own a modded HHKB and a Model F reproduction and I prefer the Model F but the HHKB isn’t that far behind.
I spent about a decade building my own keyboards, taking apart each switch and lubing them.
But, I got a Type-S for work, then another for WFH. Then decided I can’t live without the layout at home. For some reason the arrow keys are the most functional for me out of any keyboard I’ve ever used. It took me a year or so of getting used to, but can’t go back now.
All of my customs are put away in a box in storage now.
Best tactile keypress, layout is clean and neat, it’d small, portable, keycap shape feels fantastic.
I’ve spent easily over 2k-3k on finding, testing, building 3 different end game mech boards… all to come back to using my plastic HHKB as my daily driver.
Free your left pinky, my guy, free you left pinky
Can’t say much for the original. But the layout is pretty decent once you get used to it. I use one for work and have been enjoying it
Got an HHKB Classic a few weeks ago, and tbh I don’t see anything that would make it better than MX boards.
The layout is very nice, it definitely is my favorite atm, and was very easy to get used to (Switching from a 40%).
But other than the layout, everything is meh, especially when taking the price into account.
Topre switches are nice, but nothing special. Everyone keeps hyping up the tactility, but there are plenty of MX switches that are more tactile, Boba U4s would be an easy example, and would also have a soft bottom-out feel. The tactility is also very inconsistent, some keys are very tactile, while the other ones are almost linear.
Since the Classic is unsilenced, it sounds quite bad imo - very plasticy and pingy.
Keycaps are also quite bad imo. While the legends are properly aligned, every other aspect of them makes them feel very cheap. They’re very thin, and even though made of PBT, still collect a lot of oil from your skin. Sure, it will be gone after washing the keycaps, but I am not going to wash them after every shift of typing for 7-8 hours.
Stabs are horrible, made me feel like I’m back to using a stock GK61 due to how rattly they are.
Overall it is not a bad keyboard in itself, but in no way does it feel like a board that should cost 220 euros. Currently waiting for some mods to arrive, if they do not change the experience significantly, probably just going to sell it and get another MX board instead.
The inconsistent feel is the goal as it’s supposed to be harder or easier to type certain keys based on where your fingers are.
The tactility of topre is heavily based on the weighting. Lots of people just get the higher weighted ones.
Lately, new MX style key switches have become available that allow a more pronounced tactility than was available for a decade when the HHKB was a big deal, so that’s fine. It’s usually not quite as sharp if you know what I mean. It’s the difference between the tactility of blue Alps and blue MX switches IMO. Similar in gross measurement, but Alps is crisper and sharper. Feels like you’re punching a hole in the keyboard. Topre feels more like you’re using anal beads and the very tactile MX style switches feel more like you’re trying to drop a huge poop.
10/10 ender there
Variable switch weighting is on only on certain realforce boards I think, not HHKB. And it doesn’t affect tactility afaik, just different dome weights.
You might be right on them all being the same, which would be weird on the tactility. I might be misremembering about the Realtorce.
The weighting does effect the tactility though pretty strongly. The heavier are more tactile, or at least feel that way, while the lighter ones are almost linear, almost exactly as he described, in the one I borrowed from my topre fanboy classmate about 10 years ago, so the memory is a bit fuzzy
I would love to get an Alice hhkb but can never find one available
